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From: "Charles L. Apperwhite"
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:43:21 -0500
I just finished readng the Delta Gree/WoD Crossovers section of the Ice Cave, and I thought I would add my own two cents worth. I have been a player of the WoD games ever since Vampire first came out, although our longest running campaing was in the Werewolf setting. Its in that setting that you can find many lovecraft-like elements. For example, if you have the Book of the Wyrm (I only have 1st edition), you'll find some of their equilivants of Great Old Ones or, as they call them, the Maeljin Incarna. The Black Spiral Dancers totems of coruption are also mythos like (the Dark Fungus; Relshab, the "Faceless Eater", and G'louogh, the "Dance or Corruption").
There was also one other Werewolf supplement that could be useful in a CoC/Delta Green type setting: "Chronicle of the Black Labrinth". It was presented in the form of a 'real' book published by a Alistair Crowley-like character called Fraeter I*I. It is a collection of short- story like 'historical' segments. Of particular interest is a section in the back of the book that presents the rituals for entry into the mysteries of the Black Labryinth. This is very much like a CoC cult.
A small section of SPOILER INFORMATION follows.
If I were going to include elements of Delta Green into the World of Darkness (instead of vice/versa), I would keep the data concerning the formation of Majestic-12 and Delta Green (perhaps the deep ones are wyrm-corrupted Rokea [werwsharks], or a race of true-breeding fomori). The Mi-Go, instead of being from another planet, are instead entities from the deep umbra. The Karotecha could easily be worked in, as group of neo-nazi mages and their acolyte followers (only the three leaders need be mages, to keep the power level down). Werewolf already has a Fate-like organization in the Seventh Generation (from "Rage Across New York"). Again, I would only make the leaders of the various castes mages (give them an Arete equal to their Gnosis, and a total number of pips in spheres equal to the total gifts given for each character. Give them the same foci as the Order of Hermes, with their specialty sphere being either Spirit or Entropy).
To avoid confusing conflicts, I would simply replace the Special Affairs Division (from "Project Twilight") with Delta Green; i.e. the government has no official paranormal investigators. As far as other elements from the World of Darkness, I would downplay Mage because of power level considerations (most of the Traditions are concerned with combatting the Technocracy, and the Technos consider the Traditions a bigger threat then any Nephandi (evil mages). Although I am far from owning all of the supplements, it seems that most of the information contained in the various Year of the Hunter supplements can be used (espically "Project Twilight' and "The Arcanum"). The Kindred are too concerned with their own power struggles, and the possible coming of Gehenna, to be concerned with extra-dimensional evils, Wraiths are totally removed from the world, and Changelings have their own court intrigues to worry about (although I suppose that some unseelie changelings could end up worshipping various aspects of the wyrm). [Personally, I found the Changeling setting the weakest of the five settings, and have never played it]. As you can see, I think that the various shapeshifters would have the most interaction with characters in a DG/WoD game, although they will probably keep a low profile, lest DG turn their attention to them as a paranormal threat. Keep Pentex, as this corporation seeks to hasten the time when the "stars are right". Excellent pentex sourcebooks are "Book of the Wyrm" and "Monkeywrench Pentex".
Other random notes on Wod/CoC/DG: I have read complaints in this list about the WoD being to angst-ridden. This is true in some cases, espically Vampire (I and a friend reached our fed-up point in a Vamp campaign when several other characters, low on blood, attacked a family stalled on the road), and Wraith (you start out dead, and it just gets worse!). However, one of the reasons I initially did not want to play any CoC adventures was from hearing the 'horror' stories of characters quickly meeting untimely ends, due to insanity or being torn to shreds by some slavering horror. I put a lot of thought into creating a character, and to see one die off so quickly would have been a dissapointment. Luckily, I played with a Keeper who was more into telling a story; he almost never used the rules or a published scenario, and pretty much let us get away with anything we wanted (in his version, it was totally my own character and one other who raided Innsmouth. Silly, yes, but enjoyable with a large grain of salt). As for rules systems, I have played everything from heavy number-crunchers (like Hero system, or Traveller: The New Era [starship construction particularly]), to minimalist systems like WoD (in the Werewolf campaing, all of the combat-oriented werewolves soon began to look alike stat wise). I must admit that, from the few times I have actually used CoC rules, I fould them dissapointing. Thats why I haven't bought the base CoC rulebook, but am attempting to convert Delta Green to another gaming system, Alternity (you may have seen the post earlier. Sorry for the traffic-jamming attachment in that post). I have found that, as long as the Keeper/Gamemaster/what-have-you knows how to run an interesting game (and knows the system he is using), it doesn't really matter what rules system is used.
Well, my two cents seems to have inflated to a full dollar, so I'll sign off for now.
From: Daniel Harms
> There was also one other Werewolf supplement that could be useful
in a
>CoC/Delta Green type setting: "Chronicle of the Black Labrinth".
It was
>presented in the form of a 'real' book published by a Alistair
Crowley-like
>character called Fraeter I*I. It is a collection of
short- story
like
>'historical' segments. Of particular interest is a section in
the
back of
>the book that presents the rituals for entry into the mysteries
of
the Black
>Labryinth. This is very much like a CoC cult.
This comes highly recommended from an Origins award winner (me, and if I've got it, I might as well run it into the ground). It's got some Robert E. Howard refs. for those who want a little orthodoxy, and is one of the most genuinely creepy books I've seen. If you see it at the local game store, at least take a quick peek.
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:25:34 -0400
From: "R. Menzi"
>>> This comes highly recommended from an Origins award winner (me, and if I've got it, I might as well run it into the ground). It [WWGS'_Chronicle_of_the_Black_Labyrinth_]'s got some Robert E. Howard refs. for those who want a little orthodoxy, and is one of the most genuinely creepy books I've seen. If you see it at the local game store, at least take a quick peek. <<<
Oh yes, I also highly recommend it. You've seen my comments on using the DG background in the WoD from the Ice Cave. I'd keep the Mi-Go as aliens, but change up the ideas of how the various worlds work. The (Werewolf) umbra might do well combined with the Dreamlands, as the power puppies have some similarities with the (CoC) Ghouls. The strange dimentions (as in geometric planes 90 degrees from everything else, not Sliders(tm)-style alternate worlds) from which the Mi-Go come are just a facet of the universe that usually doesn't come up, as everything native to this region of space exists in only the three. The hypergeometry of the Mythos should still work normally, rather than simply bastardize some WoD explanation for it.
As I wrote so long ago, the structure of Mage carries a shitload of baggage and would be better avoided if you don't want to make your game into an eventual Acention War, with all the baddies pidgeonholed into nephandi/deep umbra entities. The idea that the rules of the world are the product of some human communal decision just doesn't seem to fit all that well with the backseat position humanity gets in the Lovecraftian-themed games. Humans (individual ones) might impede the progress of the various Mythos beasties, but humanity sure isn't going to hold them back. The fact of the matter (in the DG setting) is, the stars are going to come right, and at that point, all the blissful ignorance in the world (or just this rather insignificant one) won't mean jack. All in all, it's a very different theme than the WoD, in which the world is the one with real beings in all three dimentional space, an, in fact, the whole vastness of the universe was invented (rather recently) by our cummunal decision that it be so. Yawn.
One of the strange and interesting (and interesting to play through) facts of Lovecraftian horror is that people don't matter. Other things were here before us, and other things will be here when we are all being digested. DG is based on the fact that other things are here right now, and what your characters are going to do about it. I'd say that, sans Mage, the WoD and CoC can mesh very well, in theme and style. If you want mages, make them godlings and leave it at that. If you want something to replace the 'Traditions vs. the Technocracy' themes among the godlings, check out _Unknown_Armies_ (another great Tynes game) for some ideas of how to replace WWGS' rather annoying attempt to give their game an element of conflict.
Now, lets see if all my Mage-bashing was enough to perform a Summon: MiB spell...
From: Juergen Hubert
I think that the Cthulhu Mythos _can_ work with the World of Darkness, even with Mage. But if this is supposed to work, the main thing to remember is this:
All the "standard" supernatural inhabitants of the World of Darkness (vampires, werewolves, mages, etc.) have a perception of their own importance in the grand scheme of things that is AT LEAST as inflated as that of normal humans.
And it is probably a lot more inflated than that.
Let's start with mages: They believe that the physical form of the universe is created by the consensual beliefs of humanity, that they (the mages) alone are able to see the grand scheme of things, and that paradox is what happens if the consensual human view of reality is opposed to their magic (no, I WON'T spell magic with a "k"...).
But from the Mythos POV, we know that the perception, and the understanding of reality by humans is ultimately limited. "Consensual Reality" is just a big mass hallucination that allows humanity to dwell in some corner of the real universe without going stark raving mad immediately.
And Paradox, then, isn't some kind of universal law, but an inbuilt limitation of the inferior human mind. No human can comprehend reality and stay sane, which nicely explains Marauders...
And all the real Mythos entities are, of course, completely unaffected by Paradox. They can stomp through humanity's "consensual reality" without blinking a sensory organ. All the fabulous creatures that mages know, however, sprung up from the human imagination, and so they are just as vulnerable to Paradox as mages.
And Mythos entities, by their very existence, violate either consensual reality, or the personal magical beliefs of a mage. But since both of these are purely human constructs, which are designed to protect our human minds from the real universe, the human minds who encounter these entities suffer - they loose their sanity.
Something similar can be encountered in the Delirium that the werewolves invoke when their Crinos forms are seen by ordinary humans. This suggests to me that the origin of the garou is linked to the mythos - their own legends might talk about a being named Gaia that charged them with the protection of the Earth, but it is far more likely that they are simply some discarded experiment of the Mi-Go or another Mythos race or being. Not that they would ever believe that, of course - th garou are as prone to self-deception as humans, and much of their magic, and most of the spirits they deal with stem from the same consensual reality as humans...
So what about the Wyrm? Either he also stems from humanity's consensual reality - archetypes of evil and corruption can be found in any culture - or it, too, is a Mythos entity. In the latter case, it should be a non-sapient being, an idiot force that warps everything it comes into contact with. It doesn't actually _intend_ to destroy Gaia - that is just some insignificant side effect of its existence. Of course, that means that Black Spiral Dancers are deluding themselves about the true nature of their patron - and the universe as a whole - as much as any other humans...
Vampires are an easy fit, since they don't have as much cosmological background mythology as the others. But it is rather likely that they've got the story about Caine's fall all wrong, and that the First Vampire is just another discarded experiment by some Mythos entity...
Wraiths could be some energy emanations of people that continue to exist after their death, but all that business with their shadows and the specters and other agents of Oblivion(TM) probably means they are just another manifestation of humanity's collective unconscious. People probably don't have souls in the universe of the Mythos, just some energy patterns that likely dissolve after their death, but humans have always believed in ghosts, so it seems likely that the collective unconscious would create some "spiritual copies" of dead people...
And changeling are definietly nothing more than manifestations of the collective unconscious. Since they are even more "unreal" than normal human reality, any encounter with Mythos beings or forces would likely be absolutely devastating for them...
Any comments?
From: Ronald Stelly
<<<< Let's start with mages: They believe that the physical form of the universe is created by the consensual beliefs of humanity, that they (the mages) alone are able to see the grand scheme of things, and that paradox is what happens if the consensual human view of reality is opposed to their magic (no, I WON'T spell magic with a "k"...). >>>>
Great work on the censensual vs Mythos reality!
Kudos!
I'd like to throw my 2 cents in on MAGE and Delta Green crossover. I wish to bring up the idea that MJ-12 is the Technocracy. Long ago, the technocracy was created to protect the mortals and to create a form of magic the people could believe in. Hench technology. The idea holds up under a few levels of scrutiny. First, I learned from Demon Hunter X, that the far east technocrats are secular from their western counterparts. So while the east is called "the zaibatsu" (what an original name!), the west could very well be "majestic 12".
From Project Twilight, they set up the NSA as the technocratic convention known as the New World Order. There are a few others that fit into the majestic tree. NWO is MJ-2 & MJ-3. The Syndicate is MJ-1. The Progenitors are MJ-8. Etc, etc, etc. For my gaming group (who has yet to find out) this puts a new face on familiar villans. And adds a bit of commonality which some will find terrifying. When something familiar becomes alien, thats a precept of terror.
Now comes the issue of magic.
The technocrats dont believe in magic. They belive in their gizmos.
They dont incant fireballs, they reach for their plasma blasters.
You can ignore WW mage atts like arete and spheres. This I favor since I found a passage in WOD: Sorcereer which said that from a players stand-point, they should never be able to tell the difference in magi!
Well since MAGE is a game about belief and paradigm, this pretty much explains what happened to MJ-12. For all that time, they were building a belief system and got trapped in it. They still haven't noticed.
The utlimate price of hubris.
As GM, you can use a minimal or a maximum technocrat presence.
Adolph Lepus could be a mage, or just work for them.
Dr. Varney could be a Progenitor!
And finally. Most of the technocratic toys are more like stuff from Tommy Lee Jones & Will Smith in MIB. But its easy to say "NO" about things like HITMARK Vs (the terminator) and red flashy things. Remember, MJ-12/Technocracy has been fighting against the alien horrors. Now they think they can get a sweet deal with the human-like greys. If only they knew...
Well, I should get ready for the flak!
Fhtahgn all agents and friendlies!
From: Daniel Harms
>I'd like to throw my 2 cents in on MAGE and Delta Green
crossover.
>I wish to bring up the idea that MJ-12 is the Technocracy.
[snip]
Lots of good ideas here - but there's one fundamental flaw in all of this. If MJ12 is the Technocracy and therefore devoted to maintaining consensus reality, why are they teaming up with beings from Outside like the mi-go who challenge it? Thoughts?
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:53:00 +0200
From: Juergen Hubert
Thanks for the praise, but I'd like to say something about the "MJ12 as part of the Technocracy" idea:
I think it would be much better if the two were seperate entities. The Technocracy likes to believe that it is in control of the Earth, but in the face of the Mythos, this is just another instance of human hubris. Besides, they certainly wouldn't make deals with "reality deviants", whether they look reasonably similar to humans or not.
Sooner or later, of course, the Technocracy will find out about the MJ12 deals. First they will notice that some government agencies have more advanced technology than they are supposed to ("Hey, where did they get this stuff? We didn't authorize this!"). They will certainly be mystified, especially since these technologies, being imparted from the Mythos, are not susceptible to Paradox, unlike the more advanced equipment of the Technocracy. And when they finally learn the truth, panic will set in - the MJ12 conspiracy is too deep in the various government agencies to be wiped out casually (after all, the Technocracy needs those government agencies for their own plans...). And while the Technocracy leadership argues in their horizon realms what to do, the grunts back on Earth have to deal with law after law of nature crumbling in the face of the Mythos...
From: Ronald Stelly
>>>> And while the Technocracy leadership argues in their horizon realms what to do, the grunts back on Earth have to deal with law after law of nature crumbling in the face of the Mythos... <<<<
You know what that would mean!
The Technocracy is doomed with a capital "D".
Just another evolutionary cul-de-sack on the road of extinction!
Poor hairless-monkeys...
I guess NSA really WILL stand for "No Such Agency"
It's good to laugh!
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:37:55 -0400
Hmm...that interested me. I've heard from a good friend of mine and member of this list (yes, Eric, you can take your bow now) that the new Line Developer for Vampire has just about done away with a good deal of the angst, "woe-is-me", "vampires are tortured dreamers and really, really cool" and made it more hard-edged and...well....evil!
Is anyone who is up on the line able to confirm this? If so, I may need to dust off a certain friend's Vampire goodies and see what kind of deviltry I can cause.
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:52:29 +0200
From: Juergen Hubert
> You know what that would mean!
> The Technocracy is doomed
with a capital "D".
> Just another evolutionary cul-de-sack on the
road of extinction!
> Poor hairless-monkeys...
> I guess NSA
really WILL stand for "No Such Agency"
In the end, it all amounts to the same in the face of the Mythos. The Technocracy might talk about "making the world a safer place for humanity", and the Traditions might talk about "Destiny", but in the end, their destiny, and that of humanity as a whole, is extinction. There is nothing in the future for us except for death and coleopterans.
From: Ronald Stelly
> In the end, it all amounts to the same in the face of the Mythos.
But what about the dreamlands. Humans would still exsist in the dreamlands. Which in White Wolf is a portion of the spirit world (umbra).
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:21:42 -0400
>There is nothing in the future for us except for death and coleopterans.
But at least we still have cheesy poofs!
All hail the Cheesy Poof!
Sorry, but that last comment was just too depressing.....
From: "David Farnell"
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:36:49 +0900
> But what about the dreamlands. Humans would still exsist in
the
> dreamlands. Which in White Wolf is a portion of the spirit world
(umbra).
Check the Ice Cave for a whole lotta discussion of the post-Endtimes Dreamlands. A very contentious issue...
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