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WoD
Elements in CoC/DG Games
Year
of the Hunter
SupplementsCrossover
IdeasArcanum/Talamasca
Degree
of
ContaminationUsing
Conspiracy X as a Crossover
HelperSAD
as MJ-12 Dummy - Pros and
ConsMythos
Elements in WoD
GamesReplacing
SAD with Delta
GreenConspiracy
X
OutlineExtended
Crossover
ConsiderationsWoD
Critters as
Mythos-based...
or
NotSidestepping
the Paradox, the Lovecraft Way
Date: 9 Dec 1998 09:01:49 GMT
From: "Jacob Busby Bsc."
>I looked over the list archives and didn't see any discussion regarding
the
>use of the Delta Green material in any other modern horror game
settings,
>so I thought I'd ask if anyone has attempted to use it in
the World of
>Darkness or elsewhere?
Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning) could be adapted for DG. Perhaps instead of fighting Deep Ones, Ghouls and Mi-Go DG can be facing off against Vampires and Werewolves. I don't know a great deal about WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related resources out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're going to get, so don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf.
>The only paranormal X-Files sort of material that White Wolf ever
put out
>was a somewhat pitiful book called Project Twilight, which
detailed mainly
>a subset of the FBI called the Special Affairs Division.
I currently am
>trying to decide whether it should be just scrapped
entirely or somehow if
>it has existed alongside Delta Green when it
was legit, and then since '70,
>quasi-illegal.
For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12. In an effort to prevent DG getting any employment, MJ 12 set up SAD, a department devoted to "investigating paranormal phenomena" and has told the relevant bodies (police, military, governement) to pass any paranormal cases to SAD, which answers to MJ 12. Additionally MJ 12 plagues SAD with as many hoaxes as it can discover or fabricate, overwhelming the department with (mostly) valueless cases, so that it doesn't get to investigate anything with any substantial grounding. Anything information of real note is passed back to MJ 12.
Hence, if anyone ever accuses the government of not investigating "Uncle Zeke's encounter with the Deep Ones" they can be directed to the SAD, who in turn shelve the request and never get round to looking into it.
Although they could be potential allies, SAD is not going to appreciate DG "riding roughshot" all over their work. Several interesting encounters could be staged between the "official" governmental backed monster hunting department and the "unofficial" illegal monster hunting department.
>Just as a note, I hope no one thinks its horribly off-topic to ask
about
>the use of Delta Green in non-CoC uses, but I think the game
is so well
>done and amazing that is stands on it own quite well without
any CoC use
>whatsoever.
No problem. Whilst you can discuss game mechanics (such as the effect on Zero SAN in the game) a lot of the discussion on the list is focussed on plot hooks, conspiracies, hypothetical questions, crossovers, etc. so your question is welcomed.
From: Illuminatus Primus
> Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning)
Please, if you're going to use the "A"-word, say it like you mean it. Especially if this is in regard to Vamp or Wolfie.
AAAAAAAHN-gst! AAAAAAAAAAAAAHN-gst!
> WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related
resources
> out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're
going to get, so
> don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf.
Actually, there are some quite decent materials in the "Year of the Hunter" collection. I have a copy of "The Inquisition", which is great background for a Church-sponsored/DG hybrid. I've read through a friend's copy of the book on gov't agency-sponsored Hunters (whose name eludes me at the moment), and it was also chock-full of good background. It is very X-Files meets WoD. It's also, IIRC, horribly out of print. Most of the Hunter books are, sadly. I know my copy of "Inquisition" is a collector's item now.
And one more reason to own "Inquisition": the full-page illustration on page 90, with a pair of Inquisitors in full regalia (knee-length coats with nose-high collars, sword-cross emblazoned on right breast) finishing off a vampire. One wears a full helmet and is brandishing a still-lit Flamethrower From Hell(tm), whilst the second is pouring holy water on the charred and smouldering corpse, and holding a book and cross. And he's wearing killer shades. That's worth a "Hell yeah!" in my book.
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"
> > Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning)
Did I refer to CoC as The Call of Chuckie? Then I hardly think it is appropriate to denigrate what I like to play.
Cute, but for pete's sake. :)
> Please, if you're going to use the "A"-word, say it like you mean
it.
> Especially if this is in regard to Vamp or Wolfie.
> AAAAAAAHN-gst! AAAAAAAAAAAAAHN-gst!
See above. <grr>
> > WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related
resources
> > out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as
you're going to get, so
> > don't expect much back-up material from
White Wolf.
> Actually, there are some quite decent materials in the "Year of
the
> Hunter" collection. I have a copy of "The Inquisition", which
is great
> background for a Church-sponsored/DG hybrid. I've read through
a friend's
> copy of the book on gov't agency-sponsored Hunters (whose
name eludes me
> at the moment), and it was also chock-full of good
background. It is very
> X-Files meets WoD. It's also, IIRC, horribly
out of print. Most of the
> Hunter books are, sadly. I know my copy
of "Inquisition" is a collector's
> item now.
Umm... that was the Project Twilight I was refering to in my original post. I own ALL the Year of the Hunter books. I was not asking for stuff from White Wolf that would work in Delta Green. I was asking for ideas and opinions from people who are familiar with White Wolf and DG to give me ideas and suggestions. Its a lot of work to adapt these sort of thing, y'know. :)
> And one more reason to own "Inquisition": the full-page illustration
on
> page 90, with a pair of Inquisitors in full regalia (knee-length
coats
> with nose-high collars, sword-cross emblazoned on right breast)
finishing
> off a vampire. One wears a full helmet and is brandishing
a still-lit
> Flamethrower From Hell(tm), whilst the second is pouring
holy water on the
> charred and smouldering corpse, and holding a book
and cross. And he's
> wearing killer shades. That's worth a "Hell yeah!"
in my book.
It was an "okay" book. The history section was nice, but a little spartan in places and as it has become common with some White Wolf work, not well developed. Not than any of you hard core old school "CoC'ers" may care, but White Wolf is heading down hill in lots of unpleasant ways. They started out in '91 with Vampire 1st edition, trying to do something different, original, and interesting, and well... its been a long road and there have been costs.
Anyway, back to the DG.
I've started some prelimanary plans for the crossover material, and I've isolated the origins of DG, at Insmouth so many years back, is still canon. Dark mysterious beings from the depths of the Ocean are just too cool to cut out, and are compliant with the WoD. I am sure I want to keep the Karotechia, as I really dig the ancient Nazi fortress, still hanging on trying to harness those Occult forces (did anyone see those killer Millenium epsidoes last season with ODESSA?) Majestic-12 is a pickle for me, cause I know I don't want the Mi-Go behind the Greys. I'm thinking of coming up with an entirely new form of being or creature using the Greys just like the Mi-Go.
The first story arc I'm planning is kind of an introductary exploration for the two players I'm working with a the moment. One is playing a 18th century French noble woman (the player is female) who ran into a little trouble in the past. She was sent by her family to check on an eccentric inventor who the family was supporting, and it turned out he was creating something of interest to MANY third parties. While she was visiting him out in the French Countryside, things went from BAD to WORSE. She remembers a scuffle, but little else, and when she awakens? Bamm. It's 1996 and she has a strange gem-looking device on her chest.
The backstory, for those who care, is that this inventor was roughly 300 when the girl's family had started supporting him. He was a German inventor of the name Karl Brenner who was attemping to accomplish two things: find immortality and create a weapon to fight the corruptive dark forces in the world. In a way, he accomplished both. He created an alchemical device called the "Deus-Fac", which is VERY rough Latin for the God-maker [being literally "The God -make{imperative form}!-"].
So where does Delta Green and a DG Agent come in?
1996, and this woman pops out of a state of torporous slumber in the middle of a *government storage facility*. Witnessess see this dessicated strange creature break down doors and flee the building, frightened and screaming. Someone in Delta Green hears about it, word gets passed, and my OTHER player, Agent Ophelia (FBI) gets called in. She has a messed up Cell. Agent Othello is a NSA Telecom expert, but can't assist her, and the other member, Orion, is a truly messed up Physicist (too much horror over a long lifetime).
Whew.
If anyone actually read all of this email, I say to you thanks. I just got out of a big final and needed to share my ideas with some people and get feedback. If you want more info on the Deus-Fac or the other parts of the story, I'd be glad to share them. As for the new Cell O, I plan to submit the info to the DG website before too long so you can read more about them there.
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"
> Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning) could be
adapted for
> DG. Perhaps instead of fighting Deep Ones, Ghouls and
Mi-Go DG can be
> facing off against Vampires and Werewolves. I don't
know a great deal about
> WoD but I don't think there's much in the
way of hunter-related resources
> out there. Mage:the Ascension is
about as close as you're going to get, so
> don't expect much back-up
material from White Wolf.
Actually, they have done some hunter material. I've never found it that excellent, unforuntely. One thinig they did pretty well is a book called "Halls of the Arcanum". The Arcanum is basically the Talamsuca from the Vampire Chronicles of Anne Rice. They were found circa 1890 and exist as a society of scholars and academics who investiage the supernatural for the sole purpose of documenting it and understanding it. They rarely try to destroy it or become directly invovled.
> >The only paranormal X-Files sort of material that White Wolf
ever put out
> >was a somewhat pitiful book called Project Twilight,
which detailed mainly
> >a subset of the FBI called the Special
Affairs Division. I currently am
> >trying to decide whether it
should be just scrapped entirely or somehow if
> >it has existed
alongside Delta Green when it was legit, and then since '70,
>
>quasi-illegal.
> For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12.
> Although they could be potential allies, SAD is not going to appreciate
DG
> "riding roughshot" all over their work. Several interesting encounters
could
> be staged between the "official" governmental backed monster
hunting department
> and the "unofficial" illegal monster hunting
department.
That is an excellent idea. I'll have to ponder it, but thanks for the possible direction. The problem I've always had with SAD is they just seem, well... hokey.
> No problem. Whilst you can discuss game mechanics (such as the effect
on Zero
> SAN in the game) a lot of the discussion on the list is focussed
on plot hooks,
> conspiracies, hypothetical questions, crossovers,
etc. so your question is
> welcomed.
Thanks. I personally MUCH prefer discussion over plot, story, mythos (as in any mythos of any game involved), and such than rules discussions. My Storytelling style is extremely free-from, and kind of a quasi-live-action with a strong storyline. I don't roleplay or GM to roll dice or use rules. I do it to particpate or take part in ripping yarns and play truly fascinating characters.
From: Shane Ivey
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:49:52 -0600
Jefferey wrote lots of stuff, then:
<<If you want more info on the Deus-Fac or the other partsof the story, I'd be glad to share them. As for the new Cell O, I planto submit the info to the DG website before too long so you can readmore about them there.>>
Cool, I'll be glad to see the stuff. One thing you might want to address, either in email or in the write-up, is how much of the WoD mythos and how much of the DG/Cthulhu Mythos you think is will fit in the mix. In other words, looking at an amalgam of WoD and DG/Lovecraft, it seems like you'll have a great deal of mythos inflation, with a monster or spell or god on every corner. (This has been raised before, I'm just reiterating it as a point of interest.) Will it be feasible to portray the storyline with all or most of the elements of each in place? What will be the focus of a campaign featuring primarily one or the other? What are some of the best "mixes" of the two, keeping some elements of each and discarding some of each? This stuff is good list fodder, too, for those of you who know the WoD setting better than I do (I'm largely ignorant of it, except for Vampire and what I've read about Mage from MiB on this list).
A side note: Sometime in the dim and murky future, Pagan Publishing will, on pain of death and exile, be releasing John Crowe's next opus, Children of the Twilight (or something like that), which has been alleged to be a Cthulhu Mythos take on the traditional legends of ghosts, vampires, and the like. That won't matter much til it is actually released, but it's something to be on the lookout for. I don't know if it will focus on the 1920s or if it will be easily incorporated into a modern and/or DG setting.
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 18:28:03 +0100
From: Davide Mana
Despite my well known distaste for White Wolf games (is a matter of attitude), there's something might as well contribute to the discussion.
Jeffrey wrote
>Umm... that was the Project Twilight I was refering to in my
original
>post. I own ALL the Year of the Hunter books. I was not
asking for
>stuff from White Wolf that would work in Delta Green.
I was asking for
>ideas and opinions from people who are familiar with
White Wolf and DG
>to give me ideas and suggestions. Its a lot of
work to adapt these sort
>of thing, y'know. :)
Something that might help you, as a link between White Wolf stuff and our beloved DG is the Conspiracy X game. While the mechanics are closer to WW, the athmosphere of ConX is much closer to DG, if with some naive bits here and there.
My brother, that started a conspiracy game long ago using the Project Twilight book and a whole lot of other WW stuff as a starting point, is now slowly upgrading to ConX - more data about agencies and groups (from real life and conspiracy folklore), more options (cells, equipment, skills, aliens), less angst and no fourth rate pseudo-philosophical rantings (sorry).
If you do it slowly and gracefully, your players will not notice the transition, but will probably like the new stuff.
Suggested books - the basic Conspiracy X rulesbook and the Aegis Handbook. They are published by Eden Studios, that has a site at
where you might take a look at the whole thing.
Only problem: the ConX stuff is not cheap at all, but if you live in the US you might find at least the basic book as second hand easily.
And this is more or less it.
As soon as I will be able to grab him, I'll ask my brother exactly which WW books he is using for his game and let you know.
From: Chris Womack
> For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12.
An interesting thought, but the one problem I see here is this: what happens when DG infiltrates SAD? I mean, since DG draws agents from the FBI along with the rest of the alphabet soup, it'd be a safe bet that any department of said bureau would be reviewed regularly by DG for potential recruits. Unless MJ12 rigorously quashes such infiltration (which could make for some interesting RP in and of itself), suddenly their tool for deceipt, obfuscation, and inveiglement is being used by DG to get the inside scoop on stuff that actually is worthy of investigation. I can just picture a DG agent recruited from SAD whose job is simply to sit there sorting through all the stuff that gets dumped on SAD, sorting out the sh*t from the shinola ("a certain bouquet" takes on a whole new meaning here...) and passing the latter cases along discreetly to DG for proper handling.
What I'm getting at is this--it seems to me that SAD, as it stands, wouldn't function very well in an occasional recurring role sitting on that potential ally/potential adversary fence. They're just too tempting a target for infiltration. Unless SAD is firmly protected by MJ12's umbrella--and I thought part of the point would be to set SAD up as a stalking horse to draw attention *away* from MJ12's activities; hence close protection would sort of defeat the purpose--SAD is just a ready-made tool begging for DG to use it.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more potential I see here for a WoD/DG hybrid a la the X-Files, using precisely this agency--PC's are SAD agents caught between shadowy forces (DG) trying to use them to expose (or destroy, as the case may be) Threats from Beyond, and other, more sinister and powerful, shadowy forces (MJ12) using them to exploit/cover up/draw attention away from such TfB.
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:17:06 -0600
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"
>Cool, I'll be glad to see the stuff. One thing you might want to
address,
>either in email or in the write-up, is how much of the WoD
mythos and how
>much of the DG/Cthulhu Mythos you think is will fit
in the mix. In other
>words, looking at an amalgam of WoD and
DG/Lovecraft, it seems like you'll
>have a great deal of mythos inflation,
with a monster or spell or god on
>every corner. (This has been raised
before, I'm just reiterating it as a
>point of interest.)
True, very true. I don't plan (already got initial outline for the project worked out) to have it where everything in the CoC mythos is incorporated. I already have a highly evolved established World of Darkness mythology which started five years back with the published stuff from WW (not that much back then) and I've been building on it with my own creations ever since. I've got a race called the Nephilim totally based off Biblical Old Testament conjectures and readings with a healthy Occult fictional perspective thrown in. They are the descendants of angel-human hybrids from the dawn of time, and they are hunted to this day by a divine-empowered lineage back to Judah called the "Juras". I also have a real metaphysical race called the SHARD, who when they awaken to their heritage, transform themselves into the reflection of what their innermost essence is. In some cases, that can be good, but in others, it can be VERY bad. :)
Anyway, the short form is this: I plan to add elements from CoC into a established WoD continuum mythos, picking and choosing. There will be changes, and lots of stuff will probably be removed. The big thing is to work Delta Green in a manner which works on a sophisticated level.
> Will it be feasible to portray the storyline with all
>or
most of the elements of each in place? What will be the focus of
a
>campaign featuring primarily one or the other? What are some of
the best
>"mixes" of the two, keeping some elements of each and discarding
some of
>each? This stuff is good list fodder, too, for those of you
who know the
>WoD setting better than I do (I'm largely ignorant of
it, except for Vampire
>and what I've read about Mage from MiB on this
list).
When the product is finished, I plan to put it on the web somewhere. I can send you some of the initial project plans and outlines if you want, just to see where I am going. Just let me know and I will email you individually. (They are Word 97 files)
>A side note: Sometime in the dim and murky future, Pagan Publishing
will,
>on pain of death and exile, be releasing John Crowe's next opus,
Children of
>the Twilight (or something like that), which has been
alleged to be a
>Cthulhu Mythos take on the traditional legends of
ghosts, vampires, and the
>like. That won't matter much til it is
actually released, but it's
>something to be on the lookout for. I
don't know if it will focus on the
>1920s or if it will be easily
incorporated into a modern and/or DG setting.
Interesting. I have to say I'm a bit biased by V:tM's take on Vampires/Cainites/Kindred, and if I see one more flick/book/tale with a vampire who converts other with JUST A BITE I think I'll flip. But as someone already said about why they dislike WW, its simply "a matter of attitude". ;)
Keep the discussion going! (This is an incredible list, both for the quality of the content but also the activity of the posters!)
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"
>Something that might help you, as a link between White Wolf stuff
and our
>beloved DG is the Conspiracy X game.
>While the mechanics
are closer to WW, the athmosphere of ConX is much
>closer to DG, if
with some naive bits here and there.
Hmm, I don't know much about Conpsiracy X. Can you fill me in a bit on the background and setting? What's the concept?
>They are published by Eden Studios, that has a site
at
>http://www.edenstudios.net
Yep, I know that site already. Eden Studios is set to start publishing and handling Armageddon, which I was vastly impressed by. Definately shades of Cthulhu in Leviathan.
>where you might take a look at the whole thing.
>Only problem:
the ConX stuff is not cheap at all, but if you live in the US
>you
might find at least the basic book as second hand easily.
I'll keep an eye out for it.
>And this is more or less it.
>As soon as I will be able to grab
him, I'll ask my brother exactly which WW
>books he is using for his
game and let you know.
I probably will already have them, but sure, whatever he could suggest would be welcome. I hope to spend some time and really think this over in detail.
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:26:18 -0600
From: "Jeffrey.B.Boles-1"
[EVEN MORE DELETIA]
>> For a real bit of fun make SAD a stooge set-up for MJ 12. In
an effort to
>> prevent DG getting any employment, MJ 12 set up
SAD, a department devoted
>An interesting thought, but the one problem I see here is this:
what
>happens when DG infiltrates SAD?
I'm still not sure if I even want to keep SAD around. The reality of the situation is DELTA GREEN has been unofficial since '70, and thus there has been no government agency acting in any capacity to investigate the supernatural. SAD does fill that whole as an underfunded organization that is trying to figure things out.
The bad side is I never cared for the origins of SAD. It all involves someone witnessing a vampire get up from being shot in the '40s or '50s and setting out on a lifelong campaign within the FBI to answer questions about what the thing was. Its very Elliot Ness feeling, which of course ir more the '20s. I'll have to dig the book out of my collection and check just when the attack happened.
>What I'm getting at is this--it seems to me that SAD, as it
stands,
>wouldn't function very well in an occasional recurring role
sitting on
>that potential ally/potential adversary fence. They're
just too tempting
>a target for infiltration. Unless SAD is firmly
protected by MJ12's
>umbrella--and I thought part of the point would
be to set SAD up as a
>stalking horse to draw attention *away* from
MJ12's activities; hence
>close protection would sort of defeat the
purpose--SAD is just a
>ready-made tool begging for DG to use it.
SAD is actually in the WoD somewhat under the Technocracy and the Kindred (thats Vampires) collective thumbs. The last director of the SAD was institutionalized as a raving lunatic. Sheesh, now what does that sound like fellas? :)
>Actually, the more I think about it, the more potential I see here
for a
>WoD/DG hybrid a la the X-Files, using precisely this agency--PC's
are SAD
>agents caught between shadowy forces (DG) trying to use them
to expose (or
>destroy, as the case may be) Threats from Beyond, and
other, more sinister
>and powerful, shadowy forces (MJ12) using them
to exploit/cover up/draw
>attention away from such TfB.
Hmm. Perhaps if I was working with a larger group, which may change. At the moment I have two players for the initial outing, and one is playing the previously mentioned 18th Century lass.
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:54:34 +0100
From: Davide Mana
>Hmm, I don't know much about Conpsiracy X. Can you fill me in a bit
on the
>background and setting? What's the concept?
Delta Green Lite ;->
Without giving away too many twists and background mysteries: the game - set in the contemporary world - features an unofficial, illegal conspiracy of Feds and "friendlies" (collectively called Aegis) keeping an eye on the weird, the supernatural and the uncanny, and dating back from the '20s. These guys can tap the govt. resources (one of the best bits in the game) to equip independent cells and carry on their missions - incidentally, SAD by comparison looks like a sad bunch of underequipped amateurs.
The setting is well balanced and uses a lot of familiar stuff to create a subtly unpleasant background. ConX sometimes clearly goes for an X-Files/Se7en/generally hip attitude that can sound naive to Delta Greeners, but as I said, at least it avoids many of the extremes that often mar the Wolf's booty.
All the classical props from the conspiratorial folklore are covered - alien abductions, black elicopters, MJ12, the Dallas Incident, Waco, and what. Aliens seem to be the main course at the moment, with three groups (Greys, Saurians and Nordics as per canonical UFO folklore) being covered by a sourcebook each. The supernatural proper gets quite some coverage, too, as "friendly" groups include students of the Paranormal and Magic, Illuminati-like conspirators and Cryptozoologists, each with its Sourcebook ready or forthcoming (the Crypto book is not half bad, actually!); a supernatural oriented campaign can be set up pretty fast.
No Mythos, of course.
The game system looks a lot like the WW system (that in its turn looks suspiciously like Shadowrun with D10 replacing D6) and conversion are not too dramathic. You get proper cinematic combat rules, a nice share of realistic (sort of) equipment and assorted stuff, tons of character templates, and a system that's geared for normal guys and not for monsters, with normal guys fitted in as an afterthought.
All in all, the game delivers the goods it set forth to deliver and does not try to imprint on you a worldview, which is fine. As I already said, it's worth a look.
>Yep, I know that site already. Eden Studios is set to start publishing
and
>handling Armageddon, which I was vastly impressed by. Definately
shades of
>Cthulhu in Leviathan.
Don't know the Armageddon game (saw it around but was not like my kind of thing). On the other hand, Eden seems to be set to publish a few nice things.
From: "R. Menzi" <menzi@asan.com>
>>> Some elements of World of Darkness (or Angst:The Moaning) could be adapted for DG. Perhaps instead of fighting Deep Ones, Ghouls and Mi-Go DG can be facing off against Vampires and Werewolves. I don't know a great deal about WoD but I don't think there's much in the way of hunter-related resources out there. Mage:the Ascension is about as close as you're going to get, so don't expect much back-up material from White Wolf. <<<
I find that the WoD beasties work best when they focus mainly on the "lesser Supernaturals" (LS). This is prevents the tendancy to overpower the baddies and thus require the goodie to match them. Besides, the horror genre is served better when the controling beings don't play the overt role. Finding out that a congressman is related to creatures that go between animal and human shapes, or that a lobbyist has cheated death by giving his will over to an ageless monstrosity.
>>> Majestic-12 is a pickle for me, cause I know I don't want the Mi-Go behind the Greys. I'm thinking of coming up with an entirely new form of being or creature using the Greys just like the Mi-Go. <<<
I handled the MJ-12 issue by using it to get rid of the cheezy P entity (Pentex). At it's heart, the idea of a corporation with a goal of detroying the world is damn stupid and implausable to my mind; I always like my baddies to have their reasons, understandable ones. I kept the idea of a corporate corruption around the world, but as a secondary effect, not a goal in itself. Through the Steering Committee, I disolved Pentex into the Military industrial complex. The Mi-Go are the best rationale for a corruptive presence in S. America, using the Greys' pawns to defend one of the last Mi-Go mining regions. To that end, the cookbook has been used to infuse volunteers from the US military/mercenary resources with "alien biological structures," or just improving on the natures design with mixed results. Fomori are easy to bring in that way. Perhaps Gulf War Syndrome can be a tie in.
I tend to avoid Mage in these crossovers, except through the Sorcerer hedge magic systems. The idea of Paradox, that humanity matters in the grand scheme, seems somehow against the desperation of Lovecraftian horror. The idea that human popular belief could kill off/drive out the ugly nasties is completely against the grain. Also, even if the players see it as only a mechanic for effects, limited by other mechanics (I already expressed my opinions on Paradox), the idea of more than few human reality warpers walking around is a bit too much.
Maybe as deranged cultists might have his mind shredded into enlightenment, but this "Hey! Magick works!" shit is a bit weak. If you see past the "reality" to the "truth" you should no longer be able to pass for sane! Anyway, they make great master minds, though, but the kult systems for enlightenment/insanity seems better for the horror genre, especially if you want have a PC get a taste. (Don't let it slip to your CO, lest you be found "compromised.")
If you don't except the Mage version of the world, that it is what humanity believes it to be, than not only does the limit on "Magick" (Oooo, they spell it with a "K") disappear, but so does the rationale for this "Ascension War" (one of the lousiest story elements I've ever kill a game). Frankly, without Paradox or the Ascension War, mages are practically mini Alzises of varying power. Of course, I could make up a limiting factor that wouldn't involve elements that disrupt the feel of my games, but I'd rather let the jump to mini-godhood be just that, except that a character (preferablely NPC) fits less and less well with the world, but what can you do. Man isn't supposed to understand the Mi-Go point of view. Generally, Mage is the hardest because it has so much cosmology built into the mechanics. If you can deal with the WoD without involving it, or at least not encountering real mages, you're game world will be much easier to run.
Once again, MJ-12 works well as a otherwise independant organization manipulated by beings that are not native to earth. The organization makes a good M/I complex version of Pentex; having a descent rationale goes a long way to improving that cardboard cut-out of a villan. Of course, the powerpuppies will still be on a crusade to destroy them, mainly by association with their benefactors, but that can be seen as a strange tenet o f a monsterous faith. Generally, if you cut down on the volume of acurate info about and contact between the supernaturals, you should have little trouble. Play up the role of (WoD) ghouls, kinfolk, sorcerers, mediums, fomori, whathaveyou, and don't rush to give your players a major supernatural (MS) as the bad guy. A cunning and detailed ghoul or revenant, or fomor makes a great individual villan, especially if you playthem with subtlety.
The Mi-Go are fine as foreigners to this world and don't follow the tendancies we've always seen in this backwater part of the universe. Perhaps seeing things that break all the rules (well, they'd actually be axioms and corallaries) would be a drain on that willpower trait?
>>> One thinig they did pretty well is a book called "Halls of the Arcanum". The Arcanum is basically the Talamsuca from the Vampire Chronicles of Anne Rice. They were found circa 1890 and exist as a society of scholars and academics who investiage the supernatural for the sole purpose of documenting it and understanding it. They rarely try to destroy it or become directly invovled. <<<
Man, haven't you heard? Golden Dawn is the shit for that theme! I have to say, the Arcanum came across real dry and rather boring. They already know about all these various beings, and yea, they have some info wrong, but they seem to not mind sharing it among themselves. As far as making an interesting setting goes, GD beat the pants off of it.
>>> The problem I've always had with SAD is they just seem, well... hokey. <<<
That's because it is. I scraped it in favor of the DG/MJ-12 paring. They aren't always at odds, you know. Sometimes the boys at MJ-12 want DG to peek into the doings of the greys, just as long as their assistance can't be traced.
From: Andreas Melhorn
>> Anyway, the short form is this: I plan to add elements from CoC into a established WoD continuum mythos, picking and choosing. There will be changes, and lots of stuff will probably be removed. The big thing is to work Delta Green in a manner which works on a sophisticated level.<<
Some time ago I was also thinking about incorporating some Mythos stuff into my own V:tM campaigne. I didn't really plan anything but I have some generel ideas how I would like to do it. I think you already have this sort of ideas by yourself so I don't know if this will help very much, but still ...
First idea was that *all* gods in the WoD are based on Cthulhu beings. Christianity is something that only exists because 'it'd be so nice if anybody cared'. The same is true for the evil 'gods' (Seth, Satan and stuff). All this developed out of missunderstandings. How that happended isn't clear. Probably 'Narly' invented every single religious belief in this planet (look at the insane things that were done in the name of one or the other god). Probably religions are just attempts of the human mind to bring 'sense' into the human life. Probably all religions are just 'translations' of the human mind: it changed the Mythos to something it could grasp without going insane.
True Faith is a state of mind. Baali do not worship Satan but try to bring the Mythos Gods (back) to Earth. The same could be true for the Followers of Seth (they just have another cultural background). You get the idea.
And DG fits easily in, I think. You just have to rewrite the background of DG 'a little bit' They had contacts with Deep Ones, other Mythos beings and vampires, werewolves, ... The result is the formation of a conspiracy to destroy all supernaturel threats of humankind: DG. (As I said, I don't have any specific ideas about that matter -- yet.)
MJ-12 is more difficult, because they don't want to fight the supernaturel beings but want to use it for their own ends. It must be decided what they know and what vampires (etc.) know about them. After that it shouldn't be too difficult to recreate MJ-12 for the DG/WoD crossover.
You have got angels and whatnot in your campaigne so I guess you don't like this idea very much, but even the beings you invented would fit somehow into this scheme. But of course they wouldn't be real angels anymore.
These were my ideas.
From: Jeffrey Bryan Boles
>>> Anyway, the short form is this: I plan to add elements from CoC into a established WoD continuum mythos, picking and choosing. There will be changes, and lots of stuff will probably be removed. The big thing is to work Delta Green in a manner which works on a sophisticated level.<<
>Some time ago I was also thinking about incorporating some Mythos
stuff
>into my own V:tM campaigne. I didn't really plan anything but
I have
some
>generel ideas how I would like to do it. I think you already
have
this sort of
>ideas by yourself so I don't know if this will help very
much, but
still ...
Different perspectives and the like only help to flesh out my own ideas further.
>First idea was that *all* gods in the WoD are based on Cthulhu
beings.
>Christianity is something that only exists because 'it'd be
so nice
if anybody
>cared'. The same is true for the evil 'gods' (Seth, Satan
and stuff).
All
>this developed out of missunderstandings. How that happended isn't
clear.
>Probably 'Narly' invented every single religious belief in
this planet (look at
>the insane things that were done in the name
of one or the other god).
>Probably religions are just attempts of
the human mind to bring 'sense' into the
>human life. Probably all
religions are just 'translations' of the
human
>mind: it changed the Mythos to something it could grasp without
going
insane.
Mmm. The funny thing for me is that viewing the cosmology of the Triat in the WW perceptions of the universe scream CoC mythos derivative. The etire Wyrm basis is in the ideas of Lovecraft, just dumbed down for the furry kiddies (i.e., Werewolves). When you consider PenTex (the Wyrm controlled corporation in North America) was started after someone dug up a Wyrm entity from underneath the earth on some island...
>True Faith is a state of mind. Baali do not worship Satan but try
to bring
>the Mythos Gods (back) to Earth. The same could be true for
the Followers
>of Seth (they just have another cultural background).
You get the
idea.
Only the Baali who have come into existence in the latter half of this Millenium are Satan happy. The Clan was originally established as worshipers of something they called the "Children". These beings existed in the darkness and the void before creation, and when the light of creation was borne they burrowed under the earth in pain and fury.
As for the Setities, they are too much corruption worshipers to be distinctly based around any one god or being.
>And DG fits easily in, I think. You just have to rewrite the background
of
>DG 'a little bit' They had contacts with Deep Ones, other Mythos
beings
and
>vampires, werewolves, ... The result is the formation of a conspiracy
to
>destroy all supernaturel threats of humankind: DG. (As I said,
I don't
have
>any specific ideas about that matter -- yet.)
I've got plenty, but I'd be glad to hear yours on the matter.
>MJ-12 is more difficult, because they don't want to fight the
supernaturel
>beings but want to use it for their own ends. It must
be decided what
they
>know and what vampires (etc.) know about them. After that it
shouldn't
be
>too difficult to recreate MJ-12 for the DG/WoD crossover.
Wrestling with the MJ-12 situation has allowed me some perspective on the question, and I think I have some ideas that will place them. I'll give you the specifics when they are all worked out, if you're interested.
>You have got angels and whatnot in your campaigne so I guess you
don't
>like this idea very much, but even the beings you invented would
fit
somehow
>into this scheme. But of course they wouldn't be real angels
anymore.
And why wouldn't I? Angels could be servitors of *anything*, and then just appear as angelic like beings for those who wanted to see them. I try to play a hard line, where I never categorically state the a Judeo-Christian entity or being such a Yahweh exists at the top of the comsic food chain, and yet I don't want to state he doesn't. Angels exist, and people with True Faith in Christ ianty can work miracles once in a blue moon. On the other hand, so can others with significant belief in their faith systems. Armageddon, which I mentioned somewhere in this thread previously, has an interesting concept where Heaven and Hell are having to band together to some degree to fight off a Cthuhlu-esquE being called Leviathan that has manifested and is destroying reality as humanity knows it in the near future.
Angels existing does not make anything certain.
>These were my ideas.
Andthank you for them.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:56:15 +0100
From: Juergen Hubert
> I tend to avoid Mage in these crossovers, except through
the Sorcerer
> hedge magic systems. The idea of Paradox, that humanity
matters
in the
> grand scheme, seems somehow against the desperation of
Lovecraftian
horror.
> The idea that human popular belief could kill off/drive
out the
ugly
> nasties is completely against the grain. Also, even if the
players
see it
> as only a mechanic for effects, limited by other mechanics
(I already
> expressed my opinions on Paradox), the idea of more than
few human
reality
> warpers walking around is a bit too much.
How about this: Humanity has, throuout the ages, created protective barriers against the realities of the universe - and today's consensual reality is just the latetest of these. Each mage uses his world view as his protective shield, but when it clashes with the views of others, Paradox happens.
This makes Paradox not a cosmic law, but a human frailty. Beings that sprung from the human imagination - mythical creatures, like faeries, changelings, unicorns, dragons and such - are effected by it, while true inhuman races - Deep Ones, Mig-Go, and all the others - do not.
This also impies Mythos involvement with the creation of the vampires and werewolves - and the latter ones apparently are able to tear through humans' protective barriers with their delirium!
